PvP Items

[MrSandwich (Blanc)]

After a long while of getting used to PvPing on DarkGaming again, I have gotten sick of all the itesm that are annoying and spammable, that are banned in PvP on other servers. I decided to make a thread listing these items, why they should be banned in PvP, and then I want to know what the rest of you think on banning these items.
ITEMS

Jack 'O Lantern Launcher
This one has been a frequent annoyance to almost everyone on the server. I’m sure I’m not the only one who despises flying into the arena, only to swarmed with giant orange pumpkins that bounce around for 20 seconds and deal 250 damage a hit. They are incredibly easy to use, and are very difficult to deal with unless you simply leave the arena. I have only come across one server with these banned, so it is more of my opinion that’s influencing this.

Snowman Canon
This one is a big one. I have asked Rofle before, and it’s always “It undercompares to the Tsunami Chloro setup” or somthing along those lines. The problem is, straightforward attacking isn’t what bothers me about this, it’s the blast radius. Before the beds were protected, if you stopped to regen, someone could come along and kill you through the wall instantly. It’s a great counter to the tsunami chloro glitch on the walls, but that’s also a bad thing. The damage they do is insane, and they often seem to make impact even when nowhere near you. They fire far faster than the tsunami setup, and not everyone USES that specific setup in the first place. Most melle setups suffer from snowman canon, unless they can get said person in their grasp. This weapon is banned on almost every server that isn’t SSC and has PvP in it.

Frost Hydra
This one is almost identical to the snowman canon. It’s extremely frustrating to me, to be behind cover running from someone else, and then, out of nowhere, BAM, a frost hydra spawns on my face and kills me instantly. This isn’t an issue on most other servers because they have more open arenas. But here, our arena is smaller and tighter, making it the perfect place for this obnoxious weapon to reign supreme. It’s only downside is the fact that it is slow and bad at close quarters combat. I get told to just stay in the air or to grapple to platforms, but the Hydra seems to glitch its way onto me. I have been hit almost everywhere by this thing, and it is pushing my temper to the limit. Like the Snowman Canon, this is banned on almost every server that has PvP on it.

Rod of Discord
Now, this one is a toughie. It has way too much support to just be banned on the spot and nobody question it. My reasonings for hating this are simple. If you need to teleport across the arena to kill someone, something is wrong. Jupiter has you promise not to use this device in PvP, as they hate it, just as I do. Way too many people rely on this to kill someone else, and it is starting to get to me. I have confronted this problem numerous times, and so far, the only thing I can do is avoid those who use it constantly. A while ago, I was talking to Cia about this, and as I stopped, she used RoD to get right next to me, kill me, then used RoD to get back out of the arena like nothing happened. Infestr does this as well, and I think it needs to stop. I have seen it be used really effectively, and I can understand why some people would like to keep it here. For one, it pairs well with snipers. Rofle uses the RoD to get out of harms way when sniping, and I can understand that. But when people like Yamik, for instance, use RoD to get right next to said person and kill them by a quick Terra Burst, it starts to aggrivate me. This is banned on about 2 or 3 servers from PvP usage, but not usage in total.

Rainbow Gun
This one is a bit of a minor. Usually, this item isn’t even considered in PvP, but a few people use it, and when it is used correctly, it can completely eliminate a whole route from the arena. Considering there is about 4 routes from the left side of the arena, to the right side, blocking off one, and effecting another is HUGE. It isn’t too much of a problem for those who can nimbly get around it, but I know that it is a bit of a problem for those who prefer not to go through the longer bottom or top routes. I wouldn’t mind if this is kept, but I know a few of my friends HATE this weapon. This isn’t banned from any servers that I am aware of.

If there are any others you would like to add to the list, let meknow and I will try to find afew reasons against it and for it.

EDIT
I almost compeltely forgot! We can eliminate alot of the troubles of a few of these if we make a new, more open arena. Or, we can edit the current one and make it more open!

[TheAwesomeAlien24]

I completely agree with you opinion, sometimes when I get on, there is like 5 people spamming explosives such as the Snowman Cannon and the Jack 'O Lantern Launcher and it needs to stop. The RoD and the Frost Hydra a minor issue for me personally but it would be great if they did get banned, makes PvP more enjoyable.

[popstarfreas]

I would like to make this clear from the beginning. Do not repeat “other server have banned it so we should”. We are not trying to follow a “normal”, we’re not trying to be like other servers. The whole point of this is to make PvP better and favour skill. As you know, this entire post will be criticism or a challenge on what you have written. It is not here directed at you, it is here to make sure we make the right decision.

Further, you also need to take into account HP available. If you have less available HP from a fight with someone else, and someone comes along and manages to kill you (with higher or full healed), you cannot evaluate something as unfair without taking into account that you were already at a disadvantage. We are also not evaluating 1v1. Duels are completely different. Which is why a plugin is being made with duels as a feature, to care to this matter.

[quote=MrSandwich]they often seem to make impact even when nowhere near you[/quote]This is lag. I have the same problem sometimes. Even with melee-only fights because people deal damage even after they have died; I take my advantage by hitting them from below, avoiding their projectiles and sword and then just when you think your initial hit or two scores the advantage, you were wrong, because they did two other hits while they had not received the damage yet because their connection is high latency; This is not a problem with weapons, it is a problem with connections, something that we cannot fix when it comes down to individual players.

Further, you can take out people with snowman cannon easily in open areas with something like paladin’s hammer or tsunami for instance, just like a pulse bow is not good when fighting near players in open space, because its surface area of attack is much smaller, and therefore has a lower chance of hitting, while tsunami’s projectiles come out in groups, providing a larger surface area of attack, making it easier to hit someone, even if they’re unpredictable. Yes, the projectiles from the Snowman Cannon are in-fact bigger than pulse bows, but dashing or simply running a dodging is good enough to “win” that mini-battle. Its fire rate and projectile speed is slow enough to make it a matter of luck or good predictions to hit someone. From experience, you cannot out run a rocket, but you can go fast enough to delay it from eventually hitting you, and in situations where using the other dimension is possible, you can avoid being hit.

Moreover, the main problem with taking out this weapon is, there’s not a lot of weapons for the Explosive Ranger class. The Grenade Launcher was unbanned with it’s Rocket I projectile only allowed, as a trial. However, it is not useful in direct combat because of gravity and low velocity in the direction of the player. Therefore a weapon that is intolerable of gravity, or close to, has to be used, with good enough velocity. Stynger has low-damage and is quite possibly the worst weapon for trying to score a hit on purpose. Of course, the Rocket Launcher is the fallback and other candidate. However, it deals less damage, its projectiles have to accelerate to gain full velocity, it has a lower fire rate and it self-inflicts. Of course, an arena needs different areas that favour different weapons, in order to provide tactical use of areas. That is why I bring up the open area present in the arena as an example of where in a 1v1 mini-battle in the arena, it is underpowered. Of course, more people added and you get the higher chance of randomly hitting someone and radius explosion dealing damage to more than one person. I also do not think that radius is huge at all. In fact it is quite small, but the lag really skews everything, and not to mention that the explosion never occurs, so you cannot see it literally exploding unless you shot the rocket. Unless you can find an explosive weapon to replace it, then it cannot be removed without making the class useless. It is not a super, mega OP must-ban situation. Neither a straight out OP situation. I think you need to test the weapon. And not just by spamming it and randomly trying. You need to test it in different areas, against players of equal skill.

Frost Hydra - I think the use of this weapon makes a great use of the RoD. If someone is trying to hydra you, you can teleport to them and in surprise have the upper hand. Same with Blizzard Staff. And really… please do not continue saying “kill you through the wall instantly”, " frost hydra spawns on my face and kills me instantly"; if these things really did kill you instantly, you either have low HP and therefore could just counter the weapon by hanging onto the ceiling, or the person was hacking. And, if you are low on HP and the other guy isn’t: refer to my point near the beginning.

RoD - “If you need to teleport across the arena to kill someone, something is wrong”. That statement proves nothing. Prove why “something is wrong”. It is important to note that if someone uses RoD, that you take into account your availability of such a tool. You say that people use it to leave the arena. Well that is non-related to PvP balance; it is a core problem with the way PvP is handled. One that needs to be separately addressed.

From my stand point, you misunderstand the RoD. It is possible to predict that someone will RoD to you, and then you RoD away, causing them to have to hurt themselves in pursuit. This sounds to me like a highly tactical situation of prediction, response time and pattern recognition. The only part that is unfair is when players do not have the RoD. With it, countering the RoD is not so hard. And it’s funny you mention Yamik, a person that is quite predictable in the use of the RoD from when I was PvPing with them. When you can predict someone will teleport, it becomes an almost satisfaction when you counter it simply due to the knowledge. I found this with A68: I would know that he would RoD (I was on low health most of the time), and that I would die if I faced him. So I would use my tactical advantage to avoid a fight, allowing me to kill more players. You think running (not referring to leaving pvp) is cowardice, boring and not the right way to play, but it is a tactical decision. One that you will find has use with the RoD in countering the RoD. Yes, a tool can be used to counter another tool. A factor again is ‘lag’, you can to an extent take into account lag to avoid its issues, but if the lag is high enough, then again, it is not a problem with the “weapon”.

Rainbow Gun - I’m sorry, are you saying that blocking routes is unfair or somehow destroying PvP? I think I know what you are getting at here but, I’m not going to imply anything. You need to explain why blocking a route off is a problem. Can’t you just wait until the rainbow is gone?

When many people are PvP’ing, some weapons are more useful than other. Such as those that can hit more than one player. Fights need to be separated. Making the arena larger will at least result in sections of the area being more useful to smaller groups laid out around the arena. Meaning fights can be more focused. Being outnumbered is again a disadvantage, even if it is an FFA. Something that you cannot quite help. Which is why teaming up can be so effective with highly-skilled players.

This is our opportunity to exchange points. Explain points fully also. This is somewhat of an argument sure, but it will allow all of the points to be laid down. Like with the Master Ninja Gear, except that didn’t work as well because there was not a lot of people with points that were explained well enough. I feel as those the removal of the accessory has been an improvement. I can compare said experience with 1.1, where pvp was a lot different, and arguably better.

The only problem I have that I do not have any points for yet are the Blizzard Staff and Frost Hydra VS RoD. If RoD could be said to be the counter to these weapons, then people need to this counter early on. Not necessarily instantly, because people need a reason to join the Trading System as I do not expect to be able to explain everything in a few sentences.

[MrSandwich (Blanc)]

Yes, I can see where most of those stand points come from. When I mentioned that other servers banned them , I wasn’t trying to say that we should be like those servers, but I was saying that there are lots of other people who don’t like these weapons in PvP. The problem that I have with frost hydra, is the fact that it can be spammed at someone in a tight area and sometimes compeltely lock their movements. If someone who prefers not to use RoD enters the arena, there isn’t really anything they can do. I can also see how you said yo can predict RoD movements, but alot of the time, it isn’t as simple as you would think. Alot of the time I don’t even see the person who IS RoDing. I don’t have issues with people who run, as that’s essentially the playstyle of rangers, if you rush constantly, you won’t last long against Melee PvPers. I would have to say, your point about the snowman canon is also valid, but it’s not the open area fighting with them that bothers me, it’s the huge splash radius, and the damage through walls. I have tried the snowman canon before, and unless I make a stupid mistake, it usually kills people far easier and faster than I expect it to. I find the weapon to be unfair in most pvp situations. Going back to the top where you said that we are trying to make PvP better and favor skill, removal of items like the snowman canon and Jack O lantern support that idea. Those two launchers are completely spammed, nobody uses it properly. So far, most of the people who sue them seem to fire them off aimlessly and hope for the best. It’s like the Terra Blade, but it is bigger and deals more. The Rainbow Gun is simply obnoxious. It gets in the way, if used correctly, it can simply deny access to a whole section of the arena. The problem that I have with the RoD coutnering the frost hydra, is that I don’t want to use RoD because I find it to be unfair. It’s creating a sort of loop of items that can be deemed unfair to others, and I want to break that loop. If both of those items were removed, the only things that could go through walls would be rockets tha explode near a wall when you are hugging said wall, blizzard staff(although only above the player) and death sickle, at close range again. It would make PvPing a whole lot more fun and stuff. I know that when I PvP alot of people, it gets ruined by things like the ones mentioned earlier. I would rather spend 10 minutes dukeing it out with Spooder than have him kill me after forceing me down with the blizz staff and then using Frost hydra until I die or get forced into blizzard range again.

[popstarfreas]

If you note, I never mentioned the jack because I believe that the grenade launcher and candy corn are fairer diversions. The candy corn can be spammed, but the projectiles are small, and do not go far. And the grenade launcher is bouncy, and its gravity can be used as an advantage, but it is not spammy.

Also you never mentioned the blizzard staff here, so why is it put in the situation that you mention you would rather not have?

The loop you are talking about is the nature of balance. You shouldn’t be only using one weapon, or that weapon is too overpowering versus other weapons that could be used (or you just love a weapon too much). A weapon should not counter all other weapons. The skill part is handling a weapon, and also reacting to what another player is using, and how they are using it. It is all about looking for counters to other things, and using them. If you refuse to use a counter to something, then you refuse to use a balance. It’s like rock paper scissors, if you refuse to use one of them, you will find that you lose a lot, and that players can exploit this issue, making you more annoyed. The difference is that as one player pulls out one counter, then the other pulls out another counter, and that continues. The skill is executing a counter that is effective.

For example, if you suddenly see blizzard projectiles raining down, you can RoD out and hit me with a melee weapon, I may have done 60~ damage (depends on defense of course), but you have done 190+, which is a successful counter as you did more damage than the initial attack.

Continuing on from the spammy weapons; the spammy weapons are more useful when there are groups in the arena. A further example: the sniper is one of the worst weapons to use against a group of 3 opponents in FFA, because you cannot expect to survive so many projectiles, however, in a 1v1 you can kill an opponent in 2-4 shots, which if you hit all 2-4, can be an effective weapon, but most likely not always the best to use.

For the RoD, if you do not find the RoD countering and play fun, then I can understand. When I was talking to A68 about his Duel Arena, the RoD was something that wouldn’t work, because the map design had a lockable room where the escape would be too easy by just using the RoD. But then the arena was hard to use with an arrow class, because space around the arena was either in abundance, or rare, having no middle ground, which meant that some weapons could not perform. Which is where I thought the RoD would help, because you could more easily go between limited space and abundant space, given that the Frost Hydra was not used.

Lastly, I have recognised the Frost Hydra’s universal use. It is possible that the server could half the damage it does, so it is only useful with mage or something. The downside is that a player (as far as my knowledge of modifications of damage go) would not get to see the actual damage, because the damage text is displayed irrespective of the server. Every other player however would.

[MrSandwich (Blanc)]

I didn’t mention the blizzard staff, because I find it easy and simple to counter, if you can avoid being caught in it, recognize who is using it, then you can just hide below said player while they use it to avoid being injured, I find it simply easier to counter than the other weapons. Modifieing the frost hydras damage would be a simpler solution to it as well. It wouldn’t solve the pure safety of using it behind cover safe from any danger though. Talking about rock paper scissors, RoD and frost hydras removal wouldn’t make other weapons extremely underpowered or overpowered, you can still snipe without it, and it would make PvP alot more fun for alot of people.

[popstarfreas]

How do you measure “alot more people”. Since there are a lot of people who seem to like weapons on your list, which makes them unhappy. Also, I never said anything about underpowered or overpowered with removal of those weapons. I was talking about the skill that they provide to PvP, that you seem to ignore.

[Barbariccia]

Woah, the wall of texts are longer than the 14th Amendment.

Anyway, the only thing I agree with the ban list is the Jack O’ Lantern. It’s spammy, doesn’t require damage accessories to deal tons of damage, and requires no skill to use.

Rofle already explained why the other items listed are pretty much balanced so I don’t think I need to say much; but for the same reason non-meta champions that are not usually used are sometimes seen as OP or too strong when they are discovered is because people do not know how to play against them so they lose to it. That’s pretty much what’s happening. I used to think Snowman Cannon is so OP, but a guest named Georgiana showed me otherwise. She fought me with an S.D.M.G and used the Cannon’s weaknesses to defeat me continuously. The Cannon fires slowly, and although the range is long, the PvP arena is filled with obstacles and the projectile has a large hitbox. She used this to her advantage by using the low-damage but accurate and long-ranged S.D.M.G to kill me before I can even get a clear shot of her.

That’s how these things are supposed to be dealt with. I used to loathe Paladin and Terra users but I learned how to counter it or play around it so that I can accept that there are really Paladin mains and Terra mains. We are entitled to any weapon the server has to offer and if anyone thinks a weapon is OP, then no one is stopping them from using it.

[MrSandwich (Blanc)]

I’m just going to say, Rofle, I think you’re looking at the potential and ONLY the potential for RoD. You argue that it should stay because it counters Hydra and Blizzard and stuff, but what about the fact that you seem to be the only one who uses it that way? Nobody I know uses it for stuff like that. Alpha, for one, uses the RoD 2 or 3 times to get from his spawnpoint to the other side of the arena where I could be hiding. Cia uses the RoD to suicide so that I can’t kill her, and she uses it to RoD to non-PvP zones. Infestr uses RoD to go from out of the arena, to in the arena behind the person who just got an amazing streak, kll them, then RoD out. He has also used the strategie of waiting for someone to cross his path where he then jumps the person and kills them quickly, but if you spot him and attack him, he will immediately use RoD to get out of the arena. He won’t even attack me, he leaves the arena upon sight of me. Sure, the RoD has many good tactical uses, but nobody uses it like that.

[Barbariccia]

Hey, no fair. I also use RoD as a Flash to kill you.

[andygaming123]

I agree with blanc on: Rainbow rod. someone could be chasing you with you at low health and bam your trapped with a nimbus cloud or a rainbow

[popstarfreas]

[quote=MrSandwich]what about the fact that you seem to be the only one who uses it that way?[/quote] I do not see a problem with using it to cross the arena, since it simply cuts down on the time of waiting and doing nothing, and if more than one RoD jump is used, it takes away HP. If people use it to suicide, then let them add one death to their stats; maybe if there was an assisted suicide stat that awarded the same XP as a kill, it would completely circumvent this issue. Killstreaks also need to be tweaked so that they reset regardless of whether a player killed them. For the people leaving the arena, as I said before, this is not a problem with the RoD. If this game was only PvP, such things would not be possible, but because only a part of it is, it means we have to makes systems to ensure that people can not easily travel between PvP and other sections, so as to annoy people in the PvP Arena.

[Barbariccia]

Rofle, are the PvP commands on development?