Note: The MNG and Black Belt are currently disabled in PvP as a running trial. Please provide feedback in this thread.
I decided that I should start a discussion on the Master Ninja Gear accessory for PvP use (that is, it can be banned from PvP only if that is the resolution).
Now as always, I’m not here to bias a side, instead I’m going to provide a few good reasons for either side. It is then up to you to provide more, and argue your side.
Should MNG (Master Ninja Gear) be banned from PvP?
- The dodge chances are unpredictable; some people get more than others, some get none. It is unfair.
- The dodges, if at least 1 per life occurs, can cause harsh disadvantages on some weapons such as Sniper, that require accuracy and hits. The traditional “Standing and Hidden Sniper” cannot be used, as dodges will cause them to be of no use when a player should have been dead.
- The outcome of Melee fights can often be decided by how many dodges a player gets unless they are at a safe distance apart
- Non-MNG players with high K/D’s often do not exist. Because the MNG is the only choice if you want to win against someone else with MNG.
- The MNG takes up a slot, often hindering a players damage or other stat that would otherwise be heightened*
- Careful players will often take note of a potential dodge, and keep a safe distance from a player at all times
- Dodge chances are only 10%**
- More variety is often with the MNG, which can add fun to fights (And sometimes hatred)
* I do not want to be completely unfair here. From my own experience, the damage, melee speed, defense or other stat gains will pale in compare to the opportunity of the MNG. For example, it will still require x amount of hits to kill player y, whether or not the MNG is used. Meaning the MNG is often the only and mostly better choice.
** This can look like only 1 out of 10 hits taken will be dodged, but I would like to clarify that there is an invincibility window, meaning more hits can be evaded while it is activated. This is worsened by any lag a player has.
Although I have provided clarification for 2 of the Against, it is because I do not want people to try arguing one of the points without the knowledge or reasoning behind some of its doubt.
Furthermore, this is a discussion. If you’re going to post, and you want to vote on one of the sides, please explain your point thoroughly. The whole point of providing your side and explanation is so that when we come to a resolution, all the points can be presented to anyone who questions the outcome.
MNG, whist it is a OP form of accessory it is something that is often used and most players would have been using it for a long time for PvP, I believe that this item isn’t an unfair advantage as players could also use this item if they wished to, while some new players may not have the knowledge of how to use this item it is still available for them to practice and learn. The 1/10 however isn’t a great disadvantage, to get a certain chance it isn’t necessarily unfair, a death may result of you not dodging but the battle to come however you may get lucky.
MNG also adds mobility to any class, especially those that may not have boots, seeing as how the arena is laid out fights can get frustrating when you are stuck somewhere such as the corners near the right hand side. The movement in MNG is also essential for melee players to close the gap between ranged or Mage players ad most of their items (if not all) are ranged.
Whilst we could argue it is too powerful to dodge an attack such as a sniper shot, we could also argue that most items that are used in PvP are just as frustrating such as the snowman cannon, pulse bow and even the iconic terrablade. All these items are considered to be over powered but they will be even more so if MNG is removed
So to sum up, there should not be a ban on. MNG, sure it could be annoying and players (such as me) will probably rage because that one guy survived on 10 health, this accessory is one that we (most) enjoy to use both within and outside of PvP, and to be honest… It’s really fun to dash around in PvP
Ps. If however MNG does get banned will the accessories used to make it be banned too? (Ninja Tabby, Black belt and Tiger climbing gear)
The MNG doesn’t add mobility and the dash on its own. You could use the Tabi for that. It seems your points could easily be applied to defending the use of a Tabi and not the MNG.
I would have to agree with Rofle’s old standpoint, back when he wouldn’t use MNG due to it being unfair in most scenarios. I usually just want to use MNG for the dash, and the wall climbing. If it was banned it would hinder manys ability to PvP, but it would also make it more fair to others. Overall, My opinion is in the middle. I would not be upset if it was banned, nor would I be upset if it was kept the way it is. I think the only accesorie that should be banned if MNG does get removed, would be the black belt. Since the Black Belt is the only one that is really causing this whole topic, it should be.
[quote=PhantomAlpha]however you may get lucky. [/quote]And do you think ‘luck’ should be a factor when fighting? Would it not be better to know that you won the way you did because of your skill? Whilst skill plays a part, it is hindered by the unknown dodge that may occur, making some tactics obsolete in such cases, and the way to win in others; purely bent upon whether the player gets a dodge.
I personally feel like Luck shouldn’t be much of a factor when dueling. Crit chance adds enough luck into the factor, so the dodging gets a little excessive. It’s like a few Youtubers added when completing the 7th night 20 20 20 on FnaF. “the only way to win is purely by a small chance. I hate it when it isn’t about skill, when it’s just a random chance and you have to play it over and over again”
I think that MNG should be completely allowed in PvP. To start off, MNG is not cheating. It may give the players using MNG an unfair advantage, but the people who don’t use it can easily equip it themselves if they feel it is unfair. Also, MNG is just a combination of multiple other accessories. That means even if you do ban MNG, some players might just equip the accessories that the MNG is a combination of (like the black belt, which is the item that is causing the problem, like MrSandwich said). Finally, this is PvP we’re talking about. PvP is all about giving yourself a successful advantage to a lot of players. Some don’t consider skill a factor, considering that in Terraria PvP you can be killed in about 4 swings of a Terra Blade, or 2 shots of a carefully planned sniper rifle. This one accessory might make a difference, but not such a big one that it should be banned.
Keep in mind that I don’t PvP very often, so I’m not an expert on what difference this accessory makes. However, I feel that I can get behind why this is a problem to some players, and that I understand why someone might be mad if it were banned.
[quote=XxCustomVanitiesxX] It may give the players using MNG an unfair advantage, but the people who don’t use it can easily equip it themselves if they feel it is unfair.[/quote]But this doesn’t solve the fact that some players will get 1 or no dodges every life, whereas some will get 2 or 3.
The black belt is the lower form of the MNG’s most useful feature. You can consider that it is essentially part of said problem and discussion.
Moreover, “Some don’t consider skill a factor, considering that in Terraria PvP you can be killed in about 4 swings of a Terra Blade, or 2 shots of a carefully planned sniper rifle.” Problem is, 4 swings of a Terra or 2 shots from a sniper can be negated with a simple healing potion. So with 600 HP w/life force, you can if used efficiently, have 750~ damage consecutively taken, before you actually die. So 2 shots from a sniper won’t work. And worse being, if they dodge, you can not shoot them at all, they have not taken any damage and your sniper is basically useless along with any other weapon. At that point your best chance is to get away, but then the traditional sniping method is ruined, because you need to sacrifice some damage for mobility, of which only a hoverboard and an MNG (or tabi) can give enough to out do the person you are facing.
Furthermore, the bigger problem is if 4 people are facing each other. Let’s say one has a Snowman Cannon, and that one person gets a lucky dodge, they can then proceed to kill all 3 people unchallenged, given the area permits, taking little to no damage, and gaining 3 kills via a method of which its only counter is to simply run and not fight. Going from before the MNG, a lot of players would be forced to move around and manually dodge projectile attacks; accuracy was fairly rewarded, and surprises only appeared from players whom could out do their opponent.
I see your point. To be honest, I think both sides are valid, but I just think the against side is slightly better. However, its not my decision, and the final decision will not affect me very much.
I agree with vanity. Both points are pretty much valid.
As much as I love using the MNG, I do believe it should be banned.
I don’t say this just because of the dodge chance, it is because it is an accessory that combines two epic accessories. There is the amazing dash ability of the tabi (which is my main reason for using MNG), and the black belt. As stated earlier, the black belt is in a way broken, since for some people it allows them to dodge twice in a row and give invincibility for a fair bit of time, whereas for others it wont activate at all. This isn’t too big an issue for some, but for a close ranged fighter such as myself, I am completely helpless the moment the dodge kicks in for MNG. It takes me about 5 hits to kill an enemy, and that’s a 50% chance of them gaining invincibility. This is pretty much certain death for me. Pretty much this just ends up inspiring being a sniper or a bouncy arrow shooter.
If people want the perks of MNG so much, it is best that they would have to equip the tabi and black belt separately, so that then they could get the perks of the MNG at a much higher price. Having said this, I think the black belt shouldnt be banned, even though its the main cause of all these issues. With just a black belt and nothing else, your mobility is decreased by a staggering amount, and you have one of two choices: equipping tabi and sacrificing more valuable accessory slots, or become a master of the grappling hook, both of which come at a pretty hefty price.
I agree with most of what Alpha Phantom and Annabelle said.
Dodge chances are all the same for everyone. Sometimes one has them more often, sometimes less often. It’s the same with all MNG users. It’s not that one person has them more often and others has less. I see argument about “luck” ungrounded.
Anyone can use it. Anyone. Those who use MNG have an advantage over the others? Yes. Is the advantage unfair? No. Because the others can also have it. It’s all the same as with weapons, armours, accessories, exploits (two accessories of the same type equipped for example). One cannot say that a Terra Blade’s user have unfair advantage over a Horseman’s Blade’s user, because the last one can also use the Terra Blade. He chose something else. It’s the same with MNG.
I see point about melee characters ability to close the gap to a ranged or magic character a strong point. Ranged or Magic users have higher variety of ranged weapons, whose usage in combination with a larger distance to a melee enemy, makes that last one has low chance to win this fight most of the time.
I want to ask those who consider MNG dodge ability too powerful and unfair to others, to think about rain of chlorophyte arrows shot from the Tsunami bow bouncing back and forth in enclosed rooms with each single arrow doing +100,+150 or even +200 damage. Or to think about pumpkin heads bouncing around, filling rooms with hundreds of damage. Or the Pulse Bow’s charged arrows (+100 damage) which are almost impossible to dodge because of their speed, amount and bouncing ability.
When I first encountered this and died many times, my first thought’s been a question: “is it fair?”. I answered: “Yes. Those people use their weapons and surrounding to their advantage. I must find something which will increase my chances and the balance of the fight.” I started to use MNG. From now on I have a chance against people with weapons mentioned earlier. I think if MNG get banned, then we should also discuss about usage of these weapons.
ps. again, I hope I made myself understandable. English language is not my strong side.
Well, I agree :). Agree coz :1) DODGING RARELY HAPPENS IN INSTANCES (I THINK). For example, that one time where my health is 100/400 and my enemy’s is a full, and then I got TITA ARMOR (shadow dodge buff) and then MNG (dodging) plus put it with more invincibility length, they will flame and curse you for being lucky, but take it the other way around, you might wanna smash your computer on the one with MNG because he is so lucky to not die. 2) NO MNG IS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE FOR PVP. I mean come on… no dodging? welp, that is possible, it is just that… we are gonna miss some luck and that we will have to strategize better when it comes to items and accessories sets which is actually better.
It is not that I hate MNG, it is just that there are sometimes things you will hate about MNG especially if it happens to you
Don’t get me wrong guys, I love MNG and I even have my special item and accessory set xD.
Maybe the thing that we can do here is try to ban MNG for a week and survey people on how they react to no MNG WEEK
We can also tell how much MNG can affect people by knowing how much people still play in our server BUT THAT IS TASKY AND NOT RECOMMENDED SINCE THERE IS NONE/MINIMAL ACCURACY
[quote=A68PL]Dodge chances are all the same for everyone. Sometimes one has them more often, sometimes less often. It’s the same with all MNG users. It’s not that one person has them more often and others has less. I see argument about “luck” ungrounded.[/quote] The problem is they are not. It’s pseudo-random. Some people will have more “chance” than others because of the psuedo-random. It is therefore statistically favourable of certain people over others. Not everyone will get the same amount of dodges in their total PvP time. That is unfair.
Secondly, you say that going against ranged is unfair without the MNG available. But the answer should not be using one accessory. That makes it OP because there is no other choice. The RoD is a better version of MNG for “dodges” because you physically dodge it without being invincible. How are you suppose to then counter someone RoD teleporting to you, then somehow managing a dodge on the first hit? You think you have a chance other than to try to use RoD, which by lag you’re already dead.
Thirdly, from the previous point, you can just RoD to them and use Melee. It also has a counter that can be executed with skill, and that is using RoD to teleport away, unless they are Melee. You also have the Scourge which is basically a ranged melee weapon, which I find to be much easier to hit anyone than Pulse or Chloro arrows.
Here is a challenge:
Try not using MNG while everyone else is. Tell us that you can find an alternative solution to fighting good pvpers with MNG. Because MNG would be OK if it would not be the only choice to equalize the battlefield.
I did that yesterday… I kinda won but I know those players are… you know… But when I fought people like A68 I was like T_T
Having no MNG is hard but possible. It can become more possible if it was banned for awhile so that everyone can test it…
In case that happens, I volunteer to announce the MNG temporary ban to all xD Kidding
Is there a problem in this website or in my browser? I mis-copied my comment …
As reply to popstarfreas, well… not all would remove their MNG as it is their second beloved item next to weapons and armors, which means few would participate to it excluding me as you can see…
I suggest banning for a week?
why don’t you do a test for today w/ no MNG so people get a feel for is it should be banned or not
If it wasn’t for the way the game and the server worked, I’d go against the ban, but instead I have no real argument.
The idea would have been based on the “butterfly effect” in some games, where, for example: two people of roughly the same skill try to battle each other, where one kills the other, one gets a prize, the other respawns and both battle again and again successively (very simple). When one kills the other, one gets an advantage, and typically can kill the other more efficiently or such behaviour. After enough battles, the advantage would have tipped so far to one’s side that it would become virtually impossible for the other to kill one.
Thankfully, Terraria and this server don’t work like that. One just gets a kill, laughs (or something like that) at the other, and that’s really it (in the server you also have the DP system, but as of now I don’t think that affects PvP). But if this server hadn’t the “spawn any item for no cost” feature, I would argue against its banning because: one kills the other. The other drops money (or items, but typically just money because no-one wanders into a server with a mediumcore character) and one collects it. After a while, one could buy items from a travelling merchant and get an advantage. So far and so forth until you get a similar result as above. With the MNG (assuming both started with MNGs (kinda doesn’t work, but deal with it)), there’d be a level of randomness, and the butterfly effect would be slowed down at the least, and possibly just eliminated.
But the server does have the spawn-any-item-for-free feature, so one just has to spawn everything in, so does the other, and it’s pretty much a fair battle in any case within that universal set. So it doesn’t matter much if it is banned or not.
Thank you for reading (TL;DR -> ) a not-really-brief explanation of how I don’t care.
P.S.: If only I was able to write this much in my English lessons.
I personally think that a temp ban on MNG is a great idea. As stated before, itll let people realize thats its still pretty easy to get by without it if others dont have it too. Also, whenever I duel someone, we both take off our MNG and swap with tabi so that luck isnt a factor, its just a battle of skill and builds. I think that in the long run, itll be better for everyone if people stopped using MNG, because after all, if you get 2 dodges in a row, you can sweep half the arena with your invul.
I support the ideal that the MNG should be banned. I use it often, and it seems I cannot compete with anyone with it on, because I can never seem to get a dodge. Though, everyone else can always manage to get them; as a result, killing off the rest of the arena.
After thinking about I’d actually like to know how it would be without MNG. What accessory people would choose instead… How it would affect close quarters melee fights.
I’m for a test period.